Sgt Grit Marine Forums

THE WAR, a documentary produced and directed by Ken Burns, is scheduled to start on PBS Sunday evening, Sept. 23, at 1900 CST. It is a seven part series, totaling 15 hours. Don’t let the fact that it is on PBS scare you away. I have seen some very good reviews of it.

As special interest to Marines it should be noted that Burns uses some of the "incredible memoirs" of Eugene Sledge’s With The Old Breed.

Of course there is the modern day obligatory part dedicated to the "Japanese- American Experience", which is fine as long as they tell it like it was. And in the context of the times. Maybe it will be since it is Burns and not PBS telling it.

Burns says that this documentary on World War Two is told "from the bottom up", using first hand experiences of those who lived it. Soldier and civilian alike. A lot of this work was done in conjunction with the Veterans History Project (I think Chris Spencer mentioned this in a thread a few weeks back.). It was over 6 years in the making. It should be well worth checking.

Semper Fi

Roy

Yep Roy, I hope to catch as much of it as possible. The program also covers the home front using four geographically diverse towns: Waterbury,Connecticut;Mobile,Alabama; Sacramento,California; and Luverne,Minnesota.

Here is a short excerpt from an article in TV Guide about this documentary.

Burns had a friend who wanted him to send him a copy of the documentary on dvd. Burns says, "But I didn't want to send out a copy before it was finished,even to my friend. He was persistent though, as was his boss,who called me after I had said no. He explained that my friend's father was ill,would I reconsider? So I sent off the unfinished DVDs and was caught off guard by my friend's call.

"He's back," he whispered.
"I don't understand," I said.
"My Dad has Alzheimer's,but I showed him the film and he started talking and he recognized me and my Mom," he said. "For a while he was lucid."

"I couldn't help getting choked up. And if we never recieve another kind word about the series we have worked so long on, it will be ok.This one phone call is good enough for me."

  Semper Fidelis,
     Chris

Bump In case you missed this thread from last night.

The first segment is aired from 1900 to 2130 tonight.

Roy, I was just checking the PBS website about this. They have the DVD's for sale there for $129 plus a book about it for $50. The DVDs are due to be released Oct 2nd.

Amazon has the same set of DVDs for $84.95.

I haven't ordered them from either place yet. Thought I'd watch as much as possible on PBS first and see if it's worth buying. Knowing the quality of Burns' previous works I'm sure they will be,but I'll still wait before buying.

  Semper Fidelis,
    Chris

BamaMarine7276:

Roy, I was just checking the PBS website about this. They have the DVD's for sale there for $129 plus a book about it for $50. The DVDs are due to be released Oct 2nd.

Amazon has the same set of DVDs for $84.95.

  Semper Fidelis,
    Chris      

I saw the Book in Borders Yesterday(sat.) list price $50.00 with a 30% of sticker on the cover which would make the price $35.00.

Did yall catch the old guy from Mobile telling about how he and hus buddy ended up enlisting in the Marine Corps?

They went to the recruiting office with the intention of joining the Navy. There was a long line when they got there so they walk to the head of the line trying to see which office was the long line going into.

There was a Marine recruiter there and he asked them if they wanted to kill Japs. They said sure but that they were joining the Navy. The Marine told them naw yall don't want to join to the Navy.

"You can't join the Navy anyway because your parents are married." 

BamaMarine7276:

Did yall catch the old guy from Mobile telling about how he and hus buddy ended up enlisting in the Marine Corps?

They went to the recruiting office with the intention of joining the Navy. There was a long line when they got there so they walk to the head of the line trying to see which office was the long line going into.

There was a Marine recruiter there and he asked them if they wanted to kill Japs. They said sure but that they were joining the Navy. The Marine told them naw yall don't want to join to the Navy.

"You can't join the Navy anyway because your parents are married." 

Caught it.

Was going to explain it to my wife but decided it was too much trouble.

My parents were married, to each other too!
 

I thought Part One was outstanding,can't wait to see the rest of it.

Not going to order to complete set and book yet. Maybe Santa Claus will bring it to me this Christmas lol.

  Semper Fidelis,
     Chris

I got it on the DVR and looking foward to seeing it.

It is amazing to me that Ken Burns took four completely unrelated cities (towns?) and blended all of the individual stories into the history of WW II.  What a master piece of history telling!!!

Outstanding piece of work by Burns.  The second episode is tonight, 1900-2100cdt.  I don't know about other PBS stations, but our local station will show all four episodes from this week beginning at 1600 Saturday.

I especially enjoyed the segments on Guadalcanal and the 2d Raider Bn's Long Patrol.  When the Guadalcanal segment came on, I told my wife, "The Iwo Marine who sent me the Iwo Jima sand over there (in a display case) also served on Guadalcanal."  She was duly impressed, especially after the segment was over.

edited to add:  I am pissed at PBS for airing the series during the networks' "premier week".  They would have garnered many more viewers
if the series was aired two weeks earlier.

fseals:

Outstanding piece of work by Burns.  The second episode is tonight, 1900-2100cdt.  I don't know about other PBS stations, but our local station will show all four episodes from this week beginning at 1600 Saturday.

I especially enjoyed the segments on Guadalcanal and the 2d Raider Bn's Long Patrol.  When the Guadalcanal segment came on, I told my wife, "The Iwo Marine who sent me the Iwo Jima sand over there (in a display case) also served on Guadalcanal."  She was duly impressed, especially after the segment was over.

edited to add:  I am pissed at PBS for airing the series during the networks' "premier week".  They would have garnered many more viewers
if the series was aired two weeks earlier.

Frank, I know what you mean. The only series I try to watch regularly is NCIS and The Unit and both have their season premires tomorrow night. I don't know if they will do it every night, but last night after Part One finished, they immediately re-aired it. Maybe they will do that every night it's on.

  Semper Fidelis,
    Chris

As one who remembers all those times, I'm finding it 100% accurate. It captures the way small-town America reacted and went all out for the war effort. Some might consider some of the combat footage pretty graphic, but I think we should all know what those men went through. Looking forward to the rest of the segments, hoping I can tape it and keep it. I like the way it's humanized with follow ups on those young men we "meet" first in their home settings, then find out what happened to them. I think it's very nicely written and produced.

Thank you for the insight, Ginny.  I think the entire series will be outstanding.

I have watched both episodes thus far. Ken Burns just goes on to reinforce his genius in the retelling of events in American and world history. It is absolutely brilliant.

I have watched both episodes thus far and have really enjoyed them.  From what I have read in the past, Burns is doing an excellent job of recounting a terrible and terribly important part of this country's history.  The only down side I have so far - I read a short article on the series in a local paper and Burns stated he had been pressured to include information about the service of blacks and hispanics during the war.  He succumbed to the pressure (now, I am NOT diminishing the importance of the roles of these two groups of people).  But Burns did make the statement that there are no specific references to Irish, Dutch, Italian, etc Americans who also played a major roll in the war.  Other than that, as I said, it is an excellent series.

I thought I knew a bit of American history but this show is giving me a completely new perspective. 

Who'da thunk that so many good folks back home busted their butts so hard for the "war effort"?  I mean, building ships and planes faster than the Japs & Krauts could shoot them down or sink them?!!! 

And those hapless air crews?  60 planes and 600 men shot down per mission?  JeezaPete!!! 

I also knew that we had problems in Northern Africa but not to the extent that we did.  And that George Patton!!!  Bigger than life.  And then there was Dugout Doug.  The bug out king leaving all of those hapless Jarheads & doggies to suffer the Bataan Death March.

Ginny: Thanks for your personal perspective as well.

"And those hapless air crews?  60 planes and 600 men shot down per mission"

Actually these horrendous losses only occurred on a couple of occasions.  The first was supposed to be a two pronged attack on Schweinfurt and Regensburg.  The plan was for both cities to be attacked at the same time, thereby over-whelming German air defense.  Unfortunately, one group was delayed almost 4 hours due to ground fog at their home bases.  The first group went and lost some 28 aircraft (if memory serves).  By the time the second group got off the ground, the German fighters were waiting for them - having landed, refueled and rearmed.  Another 32 aircraft were shot down.  Thus, 60 bombers equals 600 aircrew.  However, whenever a B-17 was shot down 10 aircrew went with her so even if a small attack - say 30 or 40 aircraft - had aircraft shot down the results on the squadron could be devastating.

It is important to remember that the primary heavy bombers of WWII - in ETO - were the B-17 (The Flying Fortress) and the B-24 (Liberator).  Both carried crews of 10.  The aircrews of both aircraft literally loved their planes.  The B-24 crowd would claim that the '24 would "...get you there and back faster..."  The '17 crowd would respond with, "...yeah, but the '17 will get you there and back more often..."  I have seen many photos of the amount of damage the '17 would absorb and still fly - well, perhaps not fly but, like a helicopter, beat the air and gravity into submission until she touched down.

When WWII started, each member of a bomber crew was expected to complete 25 combat missions before they could be rotated home or assigned to a ground slot.  The point made by Burns in "The War" is absolutely correct - the likelihood that any one crew member could complete 25 missions was somewhere between slim and none - at the beginning of the war and until early 1944 when the odds improved dramatically.  If you have seen the movie "Memphis Belle" you know that her crew was the first to complete 25 missions (actually only 9 of her crew had the required 25 - the 10th poor devil was picked up from another crew and had to fly five more missions before he got the 25) in combat.  She returned to the US in the summer of 1943.  The movie is misleading in that they really and I mean REALLY stretch the truth of what that crew went through on its last mission.  Don't misunderstand the "Belle" absorbed all kinds of punishment during her missions but not all at once.  But that would be information for another thread.

 The B-17 was called the "Flying Fortress" because she carried so many .50 calibre machineguns.  Boeing - the builder - and the Army Air Force fully expected the '17 could fight her way in and out of combat.  They were proven terribly wrong.  One of the weakest points in her defensive array was her nose - she had a coaxial .50 (it started out as a .30) and was operated by the bombadier.  To improve her defense - if you see pictures of the '17 near the end of the war - they added a powered "chin" turret with 2 of the .50 machineguns.  They even experimented with several '17's specifically modified with up to - count 'em - 40 of the machine guns.  Unfortunately, this proved not very feasible because the amount of ammunition carried plus the additional drag caused by the guns sticking in the slip stream plus there was no way to position this "defensive" '17 in the formation to ensure her fire power protected the other aircraft.

Things began to improve when Gen. Curtis LeMay (the eventual head of Strategic Air Command) developed the "Combat Box" for formation flying.  This required a specific stacking of aircraft within squadrons, squadrons within groups and groups within wings.  This did help to a great degree.  The eventual development of good, long range intereceptors - the P-51 (Mustang) specifically - proved the undoing of German air defenses.  The P-38 (Lightening) and P-47 (Thunderbolt/Jug) were able to contend with German fighters but had specific deficiencies that the '51 was able to overcome.

By the time WWII ended in 1945 aircrews were required to complete 100 combat missions before being rotated home.

This was a little long winded but I hope it helps.

As I said in my earlier post, I am enjoying the series.

Thanks for the "long winded" write up. 

Thanks for the good scoop, James.  My father-in-law's (may he rest in peace) B-24 was shot down over Germany in early '43.  All but two crewmen survived to be guests of the Germans until the end of the war.  My father-in-law was reunited with his pilot at our house in Lawton, OK, in 1993.  What an awesome day that was.

Reminder:

In about 30 minutes episode #4. 1900 CST.

I was in the Metro NYC area yesteday and one of the two NPR stations had a personal interview with the co-directors, Ken Burns and a lady (I am having a "senior moment" with her name).  They said that they wanted to present WW II as it was.  No political agenda, no cover ups and just  showing both sides of a "bad" war. 

He said that most of the personal interviews were completed before 9/11/01.  Much of the editing work was done while OIF was just starting.  They talked about a lot of previously unpublished "stuff" that was in the film that is being repeated in Iraq and Afghanistan today.  Bad equipment and/or the lack of equipment.  Bad military leaders and major blunders in operations.  Mistreatment of prisioners and/or the killing of civilians.  They happen in all wars but the public has been (generally) sheltered from bad news.  He wants everyone to view this film and form their own opinions.

They originally chose one city (Beloxi?) to tell the story but there were not enough combat veterans available to tell their stories.  They insisted on combat vets since that it what the story line was going to be.  Just like in Vietnam 1 in 7 servicemen ever saw combat.  They simply put an ad in the local newspaper asking for interviewes and they got slammed.  Many vets never had said a word of their past to anyone.  Many had problems until they got moving...some they could not get to shut up.  They both were thrilled.

They originally did not include Hispanics or Native Americans since there weren't any available to interview...or none volunteered to be interviewed.  After the show was edited and "in the can," they did two Hispanic interviews and one Native American and inserted them into the finished product.  Ken Burns was careful to say that the very beginning of each episode has the statement about the war was fought in too many places and there were too many people to be able to included all of them in this show.  He pointed out that no submariners were included and he is sorry for that.

I wanted the station to open the call in lines so I could call and tell them both how riviting the show is.  I truly wanted to thank them for their fine efforts and to implore them to do a show on Vietnam.  Alas, there was no opportunity to do so.